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Manure fans clash with italian police

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Moos

In the cold light of day maybe I was a little harsh on you last night!

I still disagree with the sentiment which you appear to be making that there is a possible scenario where that fan may have deserved that beating or that the policeman's actions were justified however I was probably a tad abrupt in my response to you!

I totally accept that we don't have the full facts and have only seen brief footage of what happened (and we certainly don't know what went on outside the stadium) however I do stand by the point that the policve are there to uphold the law, not to break the law. In upholding the law I accept that there is a degree of 'reasonable force' required but that reasonable force should only be used until such point as the situation is under control and the the person in question is no longer presenting a risk.

In the particular incident in the clip that Utd dan was very far form presenting a risk and was clearly 'under control' and therefore irrespective of anything he may have done to warrant being attacked by the policemen in the first place was clearly no longer a viable threat well before the beating stopped.

What we saw last night was a policement out of control and that is an undesirable characteristic in someone charged with upholding the law and allegedly a responsibility for keeping the peace. That was simply a thug in protective clothing, he wasn't doing that because he ahd to, he was doing it because he was either enjoying it or, more worryingly, had been trained to.

I very much doubt that anything will happen to the policeman in question in terms of action against him by the Italian police force (although it would be refreshing to be proved wrong) however I would love to see the Utd fan in question push charges through the European courts. Unlikely to happen because of the potential financial burden for him (and also the fact that if he was guilty of anything this would be highlighted) but it would make for a very interesting case and just might have a knock on effect in terms of how polivce behave in many European countries when there are travelling fans in town.

 
The same thing happened to us in Rome when we beat Lazio. My old man who there's no way you would find him threatening to look at, came out of the toilet and got smashed by the old bill. I wrote to everyone I could to complain about the behaviour of their police and the only response I got was from Chelsea telling me that they were aware of what had happened at that they would make their report to UEFA but that I shouldn't expect to hear any more about it. UEFA said thank you for your letter!!!The Italian police really are scum and hopefully something will happen this time but the big thing is that this was not isolated.
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Barn, I was there as well and saw a number of incidents where the coppers were very heavy handed. Nothing happened to me (purely through good fortune I have to say as things kicked off very close to me) but the incidents I saw just emphasised that I could be just as 'guilty' as anyone in the eyes of the police and I am far from a trouble maker at football. I would say at least 70% of what I saw was the sort of thing that British coppers see week in week out in and around pubs at Premiership games and do no more than make themselves visible or at worst a few quiet words. Another 20% maybe warranted a few being at least seperated from the crowd and calmed down and then maybe 10% warranted an arrest. But no, that isn't what happened at all!

 
there were incidents outside the stadium between manu fans and tifosi from as roma.

both clubs should be strongly punished. the probleme with italian football is that their cops, like the french ones, are not trained to deal with football fans, they just deal with it like a street riot. i don't understand why they don't hire stewards.

when i went to manchester with lille, the cops treated us very politely, with respect. can't say the same about our cops in france, the way they treat us in away games is disgusting...

 
Loz, this matter of supporters behaviours has been discussed before on the old CSR, and I remember quite well the (in)famous World Cup threads.

First of all, NO police brutality is excusable, and believe me I have felt it on my own skin.

Secondly, I believe the majority of english supporters in general have been wrongly targeted on several ocasions.

HOWEVER - and I raised this before - what is considered "jest" or other similar situations by the british fans, can be seen as higly provocative and even offensive by others. (from diferent cultures)

Are Italian fans, Portuguese fans, Samoan fans better ? I'm not saying they are, and they may even be worse, my point is...your tauntings are something that other countries and inhabitants can find very offensive and very provocative - TO THEIR STANDARDS, while ON THESE COUNTRIES, caspisce ?

On several ocasions - and I'm a pretty moderate guy - I almost boiled with situations like these from english and scottish supporters here in Portugal.

This isn't supposed to be a neo-nazi rant, but if I travel to England, I'm gonna try to behave BY YOUR STANDARDS.

 
I appreciate what you're saying here about the taunting of our host nations, but honestly these Italian police do not need any winding up, they let the Italian fans throw what they want at visiting fans then if someone dares to complain they get a beating. By anyone's standards the Italian police are the scum of the earth when it comes to their treatment of English fans (I don't know if they treat all visiting fans the same!).

 
Point taken Sofa and I do remember the threads you are talking about well (I'm sure most of us do) and not for a second do I deny that British fans abroad (in fact British people abroad full stop) can be very offensive and disrespectful to the local cultures and mannerisms of the country hosting them.

However (and I know you are saying this as well) that behaviour does not merit a physical beating from the police., For one that, for me, is an inappropriate way for police to behave in any country and secondly it only serves to intensify ill feeling bewteen different nationalities (as we have seen on here over the years)

 
Whilst I agree that it looks a tad over-enthusiastic on the aprt of the police, we should all bear in mind that it was only a few weeks ago that an Italian policeman was KILLED BY A BOMB at a football match. That might have had some sort of bearing on the the actions of those particular officers.

I'm not condoning, just trying to put some perspective on it

Kev

 
I HATE Manure..........

....However,they certainly didn't deserve to be battered by the old bill!

This is a complete joke!!

WHAT ARE UEFA GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!!!???

As English we always get the hard-line punishments!!

Italian clubs should be kicked out of European competition

...........THEY WOULD HAVE KICKED US OUT BY NOW!!!!

Going to Rome and staying out of trouble is hard enough.....

...The Fuzz are nutters and the Ultras are nutters.

And STILL somehow English supporters ALWAYS get the blame!!

They should find those coward cops and throw the f**king book at them!!!!!!!!

The Italian press build up the fact that the English are coming.......

........winding up the locals!!

They then wheel the riot plod out and let all hell break loose!

We don't have problems with fans compared to Italian clubs!!

 
It was all chelseas fault. Have you not seen the pics ? Expert us to be kicked out of Europe very soon.

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Loz, this matter of supporters behaviours has been discussed before on the old CSR, and I remember quite well the (in)famous World Cup threads.First of all, NO police brutality is excusable, and believe me I have felt it on my own skin.

Secondly, I believe the majority of english supporters in general have been wrongly targeted on several ocasions.

HOWEVER - and I raised this before - what is considered "jest" or other similar situations by the british fans, can be seen as higly provocative and even offensive by others. (from diferent cultures)

Are Italian fans, Portuguese fans, Samoan fans better ? I'm not saying they are, and they may even be worse, my point is...your tauntings are something that other countries and inhabitants can find very offensive and very provocative - TO THEIR STANDARDS, while ON THESE COUNTRIES, caspisce ?

On several ocasions - and I'm a pretty moderate guy - I almost boiled with situations like these from english and scottish supporters here in Portugal.

This isn't supposed to be a neo-nazi rant, but if I travel to England, I'm gonna try to behave BY YOUR STANDARDS.
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Well that's a rant if ever I saw one.

And as someone who who has watched football all over Europe, facking well wide of the mark..

Political correctness has yet to catch up with Portugal it seems!!!!!!!!!

I saw Valencia fans singing songs and taunting home fans en masse last night, twenty yards from the entrance at Stamford Bridge. What say you Sofa Manager to that ? And, hang on to your hat, I saw Porto fans do exactly the same.

The difference is, English fans carry numbers. Far greater numbers. Far, far, greater numbers. Far, far, far greater numbers.

And our friends in Europe don't like that. They don't like that at all.

 
Just

To be fair I think Sofa is saying exactly that - when he says

Are Italian fans, Portuguese fans, Samoan fans better ? I'm not saying they are, and they may even be worse,
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I do agree that English fans (both those that follow the international team and domestic teams) get picked out more because of the numbers they travel in as they are perceived to pose more of a threat.

However I also think that the language issue plays a part here. English is widely spoken now that when we go abroad and sing songs a lot of opposition fans can actually understand what we are saying and hence can choose whether they find it offensive to the extent that they react. However when we have visiting fans we haven't the foggiest what they are saying 90% of the time!

I also think that (and this is where I am in danger of making a ridiculous generalisation) that Brits are a bit more used to personal insults being treated as banter and hence don't rise to the bait quite as much. That isn't to say that we don't rise to the bait with regard to other things and are not guilty of over reacting ourselves to certain things.

 
How can Italian sides constantly cause crowd trouble (ie, lighter being thrown at Frisk and match abandoned) and escape punishment?

How can a club found guilty of match fixing be ejected, then re-instated to the competition? (Milan)

Why are Italian fans (or even other countries) allowed glass bottles in the stadium when Alcohol is banned at the bridge on European nights?

Football fans have already been responsible for the death of a policeman in Italy so far this year, what punishment have the individual clubs or the country faced, European bans or fines?

Italian football and UEFA are corrupt with bribes, back-handers, tied-up close-knit sponsership and TV deals. It's all intertwined, which is why UEFA will constantly turn a blind eye.

oh and Moo's - I dunno how you can comment how police treat football fans if you have never seen us play at home let alone away in Europe!!

 
I have been to a lot of away games in Europe and here are some of my examples of police brutality and unnecessary behaviour.

against Bruges in 94 were were treated to an extra 2 hours on the plane then held on a coach for over an hour in a car park - all this to stop us being in the town. when allowed out we had to have our match ticket on us at all times or risk being arrested. lines of police escorted us off the buses, very threatening style, including being frisked at the entranct to the ground. Similar situation leaving the ground.

Zaragosa - unprovoked outrageous behaviour from the riot police who attacked the Chelsea fans during the game with batons etc in the stands. Fortunately I was not at the away end for that match.

Seville - horrible feeling of being watched by the cops and even told by some of them not to hang on one side of the ground before the match.

now lets go home

at 3 point lane, I cannot say I have felt comfortable going to spurts for the last few years. numerous times i have been told by stewards and police not to go down to the coffee bars during half time as there were spurts supporters waiting for us Chelsea lot and that they would probably start a fight with us.

When I say us, I mean me and friends all in our 30s and 40s and not exactly what I would call yobs. We don't start anything obviously and dont throw seats, bottles, coins.

I am appalled at the italian police at Roma on Tuesday. The Italians have to get their house in order.

the problem is being caught up in the violence. it is very frightening.

 
I do agree that English fans (both those that follow the international team and domestic teams) get picked out more because of the numbers they travel in as they are perceived to pose more of a threat.However I also think that the language issue plays a part here. English is widely spoken now that when we go abroad and sing songs a lot of opposition fans can actually understand what we are saying and hence can choose whether they find it offensive to the extent that they react. However when we have visiting fans we haven't the foggiest what they are saying 90% of the time!

I also think that (and this is where I am in danger of making a ridiculous generalisation) that Brits are a bit more used to personal insults being treated as banter and hence don't rise to the bait quite as much. That isn't to say that we don't rise to the bait with regard to other things and are not guilty of over reacting ourselves to certain things.
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Exactly what I meant. When you taunt opposition fans by singing...they taunt right back on the same way. It's your way of doing things, and I personally find it amusing.

On a few other countries that isn't usual, and it may (as usually is) be perceived as a provocation - on the bad sense of the word.

I acknowledge that 90% of the supporters pay for the sh*t that 10% do. It's a bitch, and that's life. One of your mates throws a glass at someone, EVERYONE in your group gets thrown out of a pub. Again, that's life.

I also said on those WC threads that what the brits find "normal", such as singing/taunting or even standing on tables/chairs on pubs/bars/restaurants, isn't in any way acceptable around here. Call it a culture clash, call it lack of confidence on the carnperters, call it what you want. As I said, when in Rome try to behave like a Roman (and kick the sh*t out of the manks
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).

On the police issue. I have felt police brutality on my skin, so I think I have a pretty balanced view here. Police brutality is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE, however, having said that, remember what happened just a few weeks ago with Catania (?) supporters in Italy, and remember what has happened time and time again with several Italian teams supporters. These policemen are - after all - just human. They're used to being mistreated, bottles thrown, stones, chairs, verylights, whatever you can name. They have families of their own too, so what can you expect ? That they taunt the supporters too ? Sing-a-song-along ?

I have seen Scots and Brits supporters behaving like arsholes (as I have seen portuguese behaving the same way or worse). But I have also seen Irish supporters behaving "5 stars" while still singing and getting drunk as it gets. (hell, we joined in)

I'm pretty sure if Irish supporters come to Portugal, they will be welcomed with open arms and a beer on hand. Now the other two I mentioned...I'm not so sure.

 
First off, That Roman Cop going mental with his truncheon on that Man U supporter on the ground is sickening. That went way beyond attempting to assert control - and was just brutality. Even his colleague - standing to the top right of him - pulled him away from the victim.

That Cop should spend the next few years travelling round Europe and having his truncheon rammed up his ass, whilst taking a few friendly slaps round his head as an act of atonement.

Yeah, an Italian Cop got killed a month or two ago. As far as i recall it wasn't an English football supporter that killed the Cop. It was an Italian (Sicilian?) football whatever. So, why take it all out on Man U supporters? Did the Italian Police go and lose the plot when a frigging motorbike was thrown on the pitch in Milan a few years ago?

Secondly, all police anywhere are very capable of acts of mob handed brutality, knowing well that they can get away with it. That includes this country.

Cops have a tough job, but they also get away with a load of vindictive violence. Football supporters get a load of uneccessary crap from the cops.

 
It's hard not to sympathise with the Mancs in Rome, because had they been Chelsea or Arsenal or anyone else, exactly the same thing would have happened. It's the norm for English fans in Europe to be treated like animals by the local gendarmes.

Unfortunately for all English football fans travelling abroad, our history precedes us. Because of what happened in the 70s and 80s, the Continental police are expecting us all to be hooligans and will react to the slightest provocation (or even just anticipated provocation) in the way they always do.

I'd love that fan who was being pounded with a truncheon whilst lying on the floor injured to sue that policeman, just to see what happens. Of course, we all know zilch will happen to the cop, the UEFA investiagtion will be a whitewash and things will just carry on. One rule for us, etc...

 
against Bruges in 94 were were treated to an extra 2 hours on the plane then held on a coach for over an hour in a car park - all this to stop us being in the town. when allowed out we had to have our match ticket on us at all times or risk being arrested. lines of police escorted us off the buses, very threatening style, including being frisked at the entranct to the ground. Similar situation leaving the ground..
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What memories Lauren!

Bruges was my first trip overseas following Chelsea and the first time in my life i had ever seen treatment of football fans like that, luckily ive never seen it that bad since. I was aged 20 then and it did put me off for a while though i have to say.

We got off the plane and were escorted to a empty aircraft hanger for an hour until the next plane from london arrived and then the chelsea fans were put (and i mean put) into coaches and taken to a warehouse a mile from the ground where we had to wait for nearly 4 hours with no bogs, drinks, food etc until an hour before the game started where we were escorted to the stadium.

Since then ive been to Stockholm, Milan, Barcelona and Prague and whilst ive never been a victim of needless brutality ive seen it and its f**king awful. Its not often my heart goes out to a Man Utd fan but it sure as hell does to that bloke in the footage - its a f**king joke.

 
Seems an incredible coincidence that in the Chelsea v Valencia programme there was a 2 page spread on a European cup tie between Chelsea & Roma. In the article it highlights trouble caused by the home crowd and states our club medic was hit by a balloon filled with 'manually recycled beer' whilst one of our players was hit with a water bottle and the club coach on leaving the ground had its windows caved in by heavy metal objects requiring the players wives to lie on the floor of the coach whilst the players used their kitbags as shields.

When did this happen? 1965!!

Fast forward 42 years and you get comments like "The police were forced to intervene and when you go in you go in strong. It did not seem to me a night of violence. There were incidents but they were not serious" said one official. "The police had to control two sets of fans" said another official.

And there my friends lies the root cause of the problem in this instance.

If the incidents were not so serious why use such force?

If two sets of fans had to be controlled why were the police only on the Mancs side of the dividing perspex?

Italian government and police officals are still burying their heads in the sand looking to blame everyone else (especially the English) when the problem lies on their own doorstep and has done so for over 40 years.

 
Apparently there has been incidents outside Old Trafford in the build up to the game - no details yet.

 
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