Next Manager (post Poch)

[dansubrosa]

So why would you sack that manager and throw all the improvement out the window? Especially when we without a doubt is about to downgrade in the managerial departement wheter its McKenna og Maresca we end up hiring.

In my opinion it doesn’t take much to find an upgrade over Poch. I’m going to stick my neck out and say McKenna is an upgrade over him.

 

[All Barco no bite]

So why would you sack that manager and throw all the improvement out the window? Especially when we without a doubt is about to downgrade in the managerial departement wheter its McKenna og Maresca we end up hiring.

I wanted to keep Poch towards the end but in hindsight he's the reason we aren't playing in Europe.

If the squad was capable of playing this football why did he insist on playing Enzo next to the striker, leaving Caicedo as a long midfielder, Maatsen in attack, Colwill as an overlapping full back, no idea how to organise a defence, resistance to having a set piece coach come in, dropping young wingers whenever they showed a bit of promise. Its judged as a season, not 7 games. 

You have absolutely no idea McKenna or Maresca will be a downgrade. 

 

[All Barco no bite]

Selling your captain to pay for players who were out injured all season in the same positions? Yes, that's a mess. Conor isn't world class, but he's available, and gives a 7/10 or better most weeks. That is needed in any squad.

We're selling Reece James? Surprised no papers have picked up on this yet.

 

[_Ilya_]

Trying to assess how much of a predictor of greatness is back-to-back promotions. In recent history:
 - Paul Lambert
 - Nigel Adkins



The sample is super-small and there are, no doubt, some crucial specifics that differentiate McKenna's circumstances and achievement, but in itself this stat does not seem to guarantee future CL wins...

Having said that, I feel we are not going to get an established genius and the choice between
 -  gambling on a potential genius vs
 -  taking an established non-genius
.. seems like a tricky one, with no right answer.

 

[OriginalS]

I wanted to keep Poch towards the end but in hindsight he's the reason we aren't playing in Europe.

If the squad was capable of playing this football why did he insist on playing Enzo next to the striker, leaving Caicedo as a long midfielder, Maatsen in attack, Colwill as an overlapping full back, no idea how to organise a defence, resistance to having a set piece coach come in, dropping young wingers whenever they showed a bit of promise. Its judged as a season, not 7 games. 

You have absolutely no idea McKenna or Maresca will be a downgrade. 

Sure, but he did figure it out towards the end and for the second half of the season we were a Top 4 side. Following the trajectory we would have been a top 4 side next season under him and most supporters were genuinely happy with how we looked for most of the final two months.

To throw all that out so hire some Championship manager is absolutely bonkers and you know it too. McKenna's principles will not work well for a top side in the Premier League I can guarantee that.

And yes we have an idea. Just as most of us knew that Potter was a downgrade on Tuchel.

 

[All Barco no bite]

Sure, but he did figure it out towards the end and for the second half of the season we were a Top 4 side. Following the trajectory we would have been a top 4 side next season under him and most supporters were genuinely happy with how we looked for most of the final two months.

To throw all that out so hire some Championship manager is absolutely bonkers and you know it too. McKenna's principles will not work well for a top side in the Premier League I can guarantee that.

And yes we have an idea. Just as most of us knew that Potter was a downgrade on Tuchel.

So why didn't he figure it out in the 6 months prior when most of the average Joe's on this forum could see the glaring issues. 

What principles of his exactly won't work, can you name them? You keep mentioning principles, what the f**k are you even talking about? 

Poch has never won anything, we'd have stagnated into what Tottenham are. Losing the cup final to Liverpool's kids over 120 minutes solidified his reputation as a generational bottle job and was unforgivable. Had he won that cup then finished the season strongly its a completely different conversation. 

 

[dansubrosa]

Sure, but he did figure it out towards the end and for the second half of the season we were a Top 4 side. Following the trajectory we would have been a top 4 side next season under him and most supporters were genuinely happy with how we looked for most of the final two months.

To throw all that out so hire some Championship manager is absolutely bonkers and you know it too. McKenna's principles will not work well for a top side in the Premier League I can guarantee that.

And yes we have an idea. Just as most of us knew that Potter was a downgrade on Tuchel.

He got us on a winning run thanks to Enzo’s injury. He was forced to find a cover for him while keeping Gallagher as attacking midfielder, and that’s where Cucurella came in.

Now ask yourself, if Enzo didn’t get an injury would Poch change anything? I don’t think he would and we would have finished the season mid table.

I genuinely think next season will make a lot of people realise just how bad Poch was.

 

[nonotnowjim]

brother the last time we scored more goals than this season we won the league.

Scored more goals? Yes - we did. But the style didn’t change, and our ability to control a game didn’t change, and our ability to defend a set piece didn’t change…. So where is the balance?

Lamps mk1 had us scoring more - but that doesn’t make for a winning club. Balance and system is key - and Poch didn’t have it or ever look close to it, in fact, he heavily stuck to the slow ,ponderous and passive MO if passing it around the defenders for 60% of every game method.

 

[ozboy]

I agree with you, the board want to go different way than the manager so they have a divorce, I have no problem with that. 

This is not what discussion all about. @nonotnowjim want a manager to establish an identity . 

It doesn't matter what identity or style. It is difficult to find style that fit player who require different system and characteristic to perform. Enzo is probably better at more possesion based style whereas Mudyrk is better of at direct style.

The manager can also think 343 is the best way. Can the manager bin all the wingers? 

If the answer is no and the SD want the players that rhy bought to play then establishing identity is impossible. 

I think it’s a good point of whether the players can be made to fit together and establish an identity. My bet is yes but I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong. 

 

[OriginalS]

So why didn't he figure it out in the 6 months prior when most of the average Joe's on this forum could see the glaring issues. 

What principles of his exactly won't work, can you name them? You keep mentioning principles, what the f**k are you even talking about? 

I think he attempted to make Caicedo-Enzo work for far too long (likely pushed by the owners to do so) and it hurt both us and him. Enzo getting injured freed Pochettino up and we immediately started to perform when he could change the midfield set-up. Caicedo-Cucurella-Gallagher was 100% something to build on for next season but now thats out the window just like that. And back to Caicedo and Enzo we go...

Well, his football is not based on possession and control for one. Which happens to be the winning formula in the Premier League for the best part of a decade now. He likes to use a big bastard up front to fire crosses and long balls towards which is not what we would want to do and otherwise he just tells attackers to do whatever they want (Omari who said this btw).

For me his style works for a typical underdog like Ipswich when the players rally around him. He had the momentum behind him at that club (after he got them promoted) and to his credit he kept that momentum going all the way through to promotion. But I don't think it will translate well to this club and these players. De Zerbi for example would have been a much, much better fit.

 

[OriginalS]

e got us on a winning run thanks to Enzo’s injury. He was forced to find a cover for him while keeping Gallagher as attacking midfielder, and that’s where Cucurella came in.

I agree. But I think the owners forced his hand on Enzo. Pochettino himself even said they'll kill him if he doesn't play him.

And I think they will continue to due so with the next manager whether we like it or not.

 

[Niall1905]

He got us on a winning run thanks to Enzo’s injury. He was forced to find a cover for him while keeping Gallagher as attacking midfielder, and that’s where Cucurella came in.

Now ask yourself, if Enzo didn’t get an injury would Poch change anything? I don’t think he would and we would have finished the season mid table.

I genuinely think next season will make a lot of people realise just how bad Poch was.

Im absolutely fed up of this narrative of Poch stumbling on a winning formula because of Enzo's injury. 

Are we actually turning a scenario where a manager lost his £100m midfielder for the business end of the season and managed to adapt and finish strongly, into a negative? Whether you believe he should have moved to that earlier or not, many other managers would have got it wrong. Would have said, "No I will drop connor in and give one of my young exciting new attackers a run out further forward, keeping Cucu as a standard LB". Poch had a decision to make and made the correct one. There not a single oracle on this website that has the answer to where we would or wouldn't have been if it had been done sooner or later or not at all.

To answer your question on wether he would have changed it without the injury? Probably not. But what qualifys you to dictate that this would have meant we would have finished mid table? As far as I am concerned, even with our league breaking inverting full back system, we were still pushed VERY close in multiple games on the run in. Who can categorically say that Cucu at inverted full back was what got us over the line?

There is a reason why we are all sat on our asses watching the game and why all these journalists who 'expertly' break down tactical shapes and decisions are not sat in the dugout of even a non league football team. Its almost as if theres slightly more to it.

 

[All Barco no bite]

I think he attempted to make Caicedo-Enzo work for far too long (likely pushed by the owners to do so) and it hurt both us and him. Enzo getting injured freed Pochettino up and we immediately started to perform when he could change the midfield set-up. Caicedo-Cucurella-Gallagher was 100% something to build on for next season but now thats out the window just like that. And back to Caicedo and Enzo we go...

Well, his football is not based on possession and control for one. Which happens to be the winning formula in the Premier League for the best part of a decade now. He likes to use a big bastard up front to fire crosses and long balls towards which is not what we would want to do and otherwise he just tells attackers to do whatever they want (Omari who said this btw).

For me his style works for a typical underdog like Ipswich when the players rally around him. He had the momentum behind him at that club (after he got them promoted) and to his credit he kept that momentum going all the way through to promotion. But I don't think it will translate well to this club and these players. De Zerbi for example would have been a much, much better fit.

Enzo was dropping MOTM performances against Liverpool playing deeper, for the rest of the season we then saw Enzo stood up top next to the striker. Enzo and Caicedo can and will work together, Poch's 'tactics' are why our build up was so shocking.

In 22/23 Ipswich had the most possession, most passes, and third-lowest long-ball count in the division, what the f**k are you talking about haha. How can you have an issue with attackers having freedom when Cole said Poch let him do the exact same? https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/article/palmer-im-loving-life-here "He's given me the freedom to play my stuff and I like it when he frees you because I feel I can express myself on the pitch more".

Please do a crumb of research before putting your tin foil hat on once again. 

 

[OriginalS]

Please do a crumb of research before putting your tin foil hat on once again. 

Alright, we'll come back to that post in March if we hire him.

 

[dermott]

Ipswich with one of the leakier defences in the Championship, shipping more goals than Bristol, Millwall and Sunderland. McKenna's M.O. is that he will outscore the oppo. You can get away with it in the Championship. We'll see.

 

[All Barco no bite]

Alright, we'll come back to that post in March if we hire him.

10 months won't change his style of play in the Championship and League One.

 

[PloKoon13]

Ipswich with one of the leakier defences in the Championship, shipping more goals than Bristol, Millwall and Sunderland. McKenna's M.O. is that he will outscore the oppo. You can get away with it in the Championship. We'll see.

He'd be the continuity candidate then! Note that they were also the top scorers in the league. 

Hard no on Maresca and De Zerbi. McKenna might be the real deal though.

 

[All Barco no bite]

Ipswich with one of the leakier defences in the Championship, shipping more goals than Bristol, Millwall and Sunderland. McKenna's M.O. is that he will outscore the oppo. You can get away with it in the Championship. We'll see.

Ipswich with more goals scored than Champions Leicester with 1/11th of their budget with their league one squad.

Sunderland spent 3x what Ipswich did, Bristol spent double and Milwall spent 50% more.

 

[dermott]

He'd be the continuity candidate then! Note that they were also the top scorers in the league. 

Hard no on Maresca and De Zerbi. McKenna might be the real deal though.

So were Burnley.

 

[dermott]

Ipswich with more goals scored than Champions Leicester with 1/11th of their budget with their league one squad.

Sunderland spent 3x what Ipswich did, Bristol spent double and Milwall spent 50% more.

Scoring goals is half the story. There's another half.