Roman Abramovich & Palestine

[Imran_CFC]

The conflict in the middle east is a cause which is very close to my heart and one of the reasons for that is my link to Kashmir which suffers from a similar dispute. I am pretty sure everyone is aware of the recent abhorrent events which are taking place and as part of those protests I was made aware of Roman's investments in a settler group which is illegally displacing Palestinian families from Jerusalem.

As someone who has loved Chelsea Football Club all my life and been an ardent supporter of RA's ownership I have been hugely shocked and disappointed. He has done a great deal of work when it comes to tackling racism not just in CFC but in the wider Footballing world and this has made me question his motives of investing in such an organization. 

This has got me thinking about my support for the club under Roman's ownership and whether it can continue, we had people questioning their support for the club when it came to the European Super League but this for me is a far bigger issue then simply one of sporting integrity and ethics in football.  

 

[_Ilya_]

Quite a lot of people would probably have one or two quibbles with how he made his money in Russia. Obviously we all have our own ethical priorities, issues close to our hearts and lines we won't cross, but ... I don't think one can paint Abramovich as a beacon of ethical club ownership suddenly let down by a questionable investment in Israel.
 

I prefer to not think too much about him and where his money comes from - sleep better that way. I supported Chelsea before A. came, I'll support Chelsea if/when he goes - he is but a minor blip...  

But, I guess, I can probably imagine some threshold of evil associated with club ownership that would turn me away. So, like I said, we all draw lines we won't cross at different places.

 

[Gol15]

Roman did nothing illegal. Hamas (terrorist group) started shooting first.

 

[Imran_CFC]

Roman did nothing illegal. Hamas (terrorist group) started shooting first.

I didn't say Roman did anything illegal I pointed at his investment in the controversial Israeli settler group, Elad are illegally displacing Palestinian families from Jerusalem.

We can forever go round in circles as to who started the recent flare up, pro-Israel groups will point at the Hamas rockets and Pro-Palestinian groups will point towards the attack on the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The reality is that Israel is a militarized state with advanced defensive weaponry therefore the disproportionate response especially in civilian areas is catastrophic and lives are being lost for Political gains. 

 

[ForeverCarefree]

Sees the thread title... 

 

[Sindre]

The reality is that Israel is a militarized state with advanced defensive weaponry therefore the disproportionate response especially in civilian areas is catastrophic and lives are being lost for Political gains. 

Difference being that Hamas is sending thousands of missiles against civilian targets. Not going to credit Hamas with Israel investing enough money so that about 90% of them gets intercepted. If Israel didn't have the iron dome there would be thousands of Israeli lives lost.

While, as far as i'm aware the IDF takes out targets that are in use by Hamas. A murderous terrorist organization that is known for using kids as human shield and fire their rockets from the densest areas possible in Gaza.

With that said. It's a horrific conflict and as always it is the children that suffer the most. Not sure I ever see it getting resolved either which is horrible.

 

[Mod]

Just keep it chilled and friendly in here folks with friendly debate, we know how Political and world problem topics end up here usually.

Going to move it to The Lounge if thats okay @Imran_CFC As important as it is, I know people will be going to the Chelsea forums for the upcoming games.

 

[Gol15]

@Imran_CFC I think it's pretty obvious that Roman as a Russian Jewish person has the right to support his people in their struggles, he also donated a huge amount of money in Russia and built a bunch of schools and what not so I don't hold against him anything as he has been doing exactly what others have been doing starting from getting this rich at the time of crisis and opportunity in Russia and till this day but he gave back a lot to his people so I consider him a very capable businessman. Just how much of that settlement is breaking the law or not is a very disputed issue anyway.

All officials have confirmed that Hamas (terrorist group) started shooting first at civilian locations all around Jerusalem. The only reason why we don't see many Jewish casualties is due to their superior weapon-defense system but that attack is violating the rules as they didn't attack the Israeli military but they launched over 1500 missiles at civilians, some say even close to 2000. Do that to any country and the response would be a strong one, but all countries have the right to defend themselves. The problem that I see is that terrorists use civilian objects and civilian people to protect themselves but by international law if a building is used by military operations then it's not in violation of a war conduct or rules during war so Israeli forces have now an excuse to be cruel and IMO Netanyahu is too much aggressive as a politician. 

But all that has little to do with Roman, it reminds me of his current visa status for the UK - it's impossible to not have any ties with Putin as one of the richest people in Russia and survive but that alone doesn't make Roman illegible since he has been living in London for more than 10 years. 

 

[ashwin]

Roman did nothing illegal. Hamas (terrorist group) started shooting first.

You know, there's a far larger history to this conflict which did not start with this shooting. Israel is by far the more powerful of the two nations, and have been using their strength to target certain people of a certain ethnicity for a while now. More often than not, 'terrorism' is a word thrown around by those who write the narrative when the weaker, oppressed side fights for their rights. Through the recent history of this conflict, Israel has killed about 6 times as many Palestinians, and the latest attack killed several women and children. And the attack on the mosque was completely unwarranted, but completely in keeping with the abhorrent "ethnic cleansing" currently underway.

We see this happen in India all the time. Anyone who tries to fight back against our current fascist state is labelled a terrorist, Kashmir being a prime example.

Regarding Imran's original question, it's certainly an ethical dilemma and I think worth some thought and introspection.

 

[Imran_CFC]

@Gol15 @Sindre I am not going to sit here and justify what Hamas are doing because it's clear that shooting rockets into civilian areas is terrible however all officials have not confirmed that Hamas started shooting first, the attacks at Al Aqsa mosque during Ramadan prayers is what triggered the recent awful events.

Like I've stated above Israel is a highly weaponized state with incredible military power therefore the response needs to be more strategic and focused as opposed to what they are doing right now. 200 Civilians have been killed out of which half are women and children. The root cause of the issue is the illegal settlement of Jews by the state of Israel in Palestinian land which is happening consistently and therefore the unsettled families and the orphans are picking up arms and being labelled as terrorists.  

 

[coco]

The reality is that Israel is a militarized state with advanced defensive weaponry therefore the disproportionate response especially in civilian areas is catastrophic and lives are being lost for Political gains. 

It came after weeks of rising Israeli-Palestinian tension in East Jerusalem which culminated in clashes at a holy site revered by both Muslims and Jews. Hamas, the militant group that rules Gaza, began firing rockets after warning Israel to withdraw from the site, triggering retaliatory air strikes.

How does it go from public 'clashes at a holy site'.......... to firing thousands of missiles ? Bit of a jump isn't it ?

Isn't that a disproportionate response from Hamas ?

 

[Imran_CFC]

How does it go from public 'clashes at a holy site'.......... to firing thousands of missiles ? Bit of a jump isn't it ?

Isn't that a disproportionate response from Hamas ?

I think you are understating the attacks on Al-Aqsa especially during the night of Laylat al-Qadr which is the most important prayer night of the month of Ramadan and the attack was not by the Israeli public but by the State Police.

In my view Benjamin Netanyahu wanted a response for his political gain and he got one.

 

[coco]

I think you are understating the attacks on Al-Aqsa especially during the night of Laylat al-Qadr which is the most important prayer night of the month of Ramadan and the attack was not by the Israeli public but by the State Police.

In my view Benjamin Netanyahu wanted a response for his political gain and he got one.

You are way more informed on this than me and most of us here, so i appreciate that. But all i see is two crazy extreme religious nations pounding the sh*t out of each other over a bit of dusty old land. A bit of dirt. Sorry if it sounds disrespectful, but they are all crazy murdering bastards and i hope they all burn in the hell they portray exists.

 

[Sindre]

The root cause of the issue is the illegal settlement of Jews by the state of Israel in Palestinian land which is happening consistently and therefore the unsettled families and the orphans are picking up arms and being labelled as terrorists.  

Not really. The Palestinias have time and time again been offered their "peace" so to speak but it's been rejected. Latest in 2008 they were offered practically all of the West Bank and a littlebit extra by Gaza. Plus free passage between Gaza and West Bank and so on.

That was just the last time. First time was as soon as Israel was formed again in 1947. Rejected UN's partition plan and instead waited for the surrounding Arab countries to wipe Israel off the map in war. Unfortunately for them they f**ked up and Israel smashed then once they were attacked.

 

[Sindre]

sh*t out of each other over a bit of dusty old land. A bit of dirt

Being a bit ignorant here I believe coco.

It's the homeland of the Jewish people and one they were given after all of them nearly perished in the Holocaust.

 

[Gol15]

@ashwin @Imran_CFC I know that it's a conflict that stretches a long way in history... Still I was commenting about the actual issue and all that I have seen is official reports saying that terrorists launched a lot of rockets at civilians which caused a reaction from Israel, even the event that happened at one mosque is a result of terrorists using the Ramadan for their goals, clearly the Israel military didn't randomly act against civilian people at a mosque so there was something more to it.

If the ethical issue is that Roman is Jewish supporting Israel then it's up to the individual to decide if that is too much for him or her, your choice and full respect for your choice. But IMO there is few companies that if you dig deep enough do not have some shady connections, probably starting from the phone and the PC that I'm using having been produced by brutal forms of labor. Almost all of our households contain Chinese products so we support a government that is actively suppressing various groups, both ethnic and religious. So where do we draw the line?

 

[Imran_CFC]

Not really. The Palestinias have time and time again been offered their "peace" so to speak but it's been rejected. Latest in 2008 they were offered practically all of the West Bank and a littlebit extra by Gaza. Plus free passage between Gaza and West Bank and so on.

That was just the last time. First time was as soon as Israel was formed again in 1947. Rejected UN's partition plan and instead waited for the surrounding Arab countries to wipe Israel off the map in war. Unfortunately for them they f**ked up and Israel smashed then once they were attacked.

You can't on the one hand claim the land is the state of Israel's in accordance to the UN as per 1948 and on the other hand deny that Israel is violating International Law by setting up Illegal settlements.

I don't have the smallest bit of interest in the history of the conflict because that always leads to disagreements and arguments in the name of religion and when you set the timeline etc. My issue is with what is going on in the recent history and the displacement of the Palestinian people and the violation of their rights in the Gaza Strip.

I am not an Arab so I don't speak on their behalf and respect the Right of the State of Israel to defend itself especially against Civilian fire, what I have been hugely critical of is Benjamin Netanyahu's Premiership during which close to 4000 Palestinians have been murdered and 1500 children have been left orphaned. This time he once against started this whole issue for political gain and it's the people of Israel and even moreso the people of Palestine who will pay the price.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the matter as I don't want to get into a tit for tat and I respect the forum and it's members such as yourself to create any serious conflict on the basis of something I have strong views about.

@Gol15 @Sindre Peace and Love I will be taking a bit of a break from football and the forum.

 

[Valhalla]

Lately I've been questioning my support as well. The latest tweet about anti-semitism by chelsea is attracting negative attention and is totally poorly timed considering whats going. Even if it has nothing to do with palestine almost all the replies on the tweet are shaming us. 

Is there a source where I can read up on Roman's involvements? Im just telling myself that ill support this club even after he is gone. All owners are shady even the americans. 

 

[strider6004]

@ashwin @Imran_CFC I know that it's a conflict that stretches a long way in history... Still I was commenting about the actual issue and all that I have seen is official reports saying that terrorists launched a lot of rockets at civilians which caused a reaction from Israel, even the event that happened at one mosque is a result of terrorists using the Ramadan for their goals, clearly the Israel military didn't randomly act against civilian people at a mosque so there was something more to it.

My understanding is that Israeli police went into the main Mosque in Jerusalem and forcibly cut the wires to the loudspeakers used to call for prayers.  Rioting followed people killed and then rockets.

Interestingly Israel was rumoured to be about to start a major exercising to simulate for an attack on Hezbollah. 

Abramovich came here in a time when Russia was not seen as a threat with the US and NATO allies attacking Afghanistan and Iraq and even building airbases in places like Kyrgystan. Now Russia is rearming and looking to become a world power again anything Russian comes under suspicion and even worse if you were a Russian governor under the Putin regime.

So by extension to Britain any other NATO affiliated country might not welcome him, for me that leaves Iran, China or Russia. Iran is Muslim and in Russia he has enemies no doubt and does not fancy China. Israel is the logical choice.