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Where I do disagree Redrob is your claim that the Liverpool are constantly attempting to bridge the gap (in relation to Turin) ? I think that is the case now but I think it is a case of too little too late. I think the club handled Heysel very badly for too long and it took them far too long to accept a portion of responsibility for what happened. For too long they pointed figures at everyone but their own fans.
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an excellent post Loz, and i thank you for it. This final point is a fair one and one with which i cannot disagree. It has been too little too late, but i think a large factor in this was a refusal from the authorities to put in place a review of what happened and conduct a formal report on the tragedy. I beleive that the club would have been willing to co-operate with this report and the way in which the club would have acted, in my opinion, would have then been far more credible and blame would have been accepted. The way i see it is that the club refused to accept the total blame of which was apportioned to us/them, and therefore would accept none of the responsibility. It is not a good view point to take, but i do beleive that this is what happened.

Regarding the chairmans portrayal of your fans being to blame, i have to admit to not being aware of this and therefore i cannot comment.

 
I've said all this to RedRob before,although its nice to see he is still interested in the champions. Rob you have to take responsibility. You lot keep harping on about history mate well its there, the good and the bad. Theres no point remembering when you won the league(all those years ago) and sweeping the rest under the carpet.

And while we are at it. If you get taken over by whoever, will you stop supporting your team?. Will you still be LFC?. Will any success acheived on the pitch be tarnished in anyway by financial investment of it? Or will you still claim its your god given right to buy the best players while we have no such rights?

In other words, will you lot stop whinging?

It must be frustating, especially this year when you were supposed to challenging to be out of the title race in november, but you are. I've said it before but you hav'nt been the best team in this country for the best part of 20yrs and you have no right to be. Thats history mate, just not a selective edited version that suits.

 
Rob, you can talk about things that heppened recently in regards to lots of your fans going to games without tix, and nothing happened. The reality of the situation is, that before all seating grounds were introduced you and your fans were responsible for the killing of people.

Tis whole debate came around in light of some of us wanting all standing areas back. then someone said it would never happen because of scoucers...heisel, hillsborough...all you lot, and the reasons why we are all seater. That, you can't argue. Scoucers cling to their history, adn talk shi* to Chelsea that we have none, then in the next breath claim that we were responsible for Heisel, just because it was a dark period in your history adn as usual scoucers are acting angelical in the whole situation...passing the buck, so US!!!!

Get a grip mate, and admit you are wrong!

 
I've said all this to RedRob before,although its nice to see he is still interested in the champions. Rob you have to take responsibility. You lot keep harping on about history mate well its there, the good and the bad. Theres no point remembering when you won the league(all those years ago) and sweeping the rest under the carpet.And while we are at it. If you get taken over by whoever, will you stop supporting your team?. Will you still be LFC?. Will any success acheived on the pitch be tarnished in anyway by financial investment of it? Or will you still claim its your god given right to buy the best players while we have no such rights?

In other words, will you lot stop whinging?

It must be frustating, especially this year when you were supposed to challenging to be out of the title race in november, but you are. I've said it before but you hav'nt been the best team in this country for the best part of 20yrs and you have no right to be. Thats history mate, just not a selective edited version that suits.
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A couple of things here, firstly the take over. I have real worries as to how it will turn out, but i do not for one second think we will be allowed to splash the cash as Roman has allowed you to, mainly because it is not a wealthy man on his own coming in, it is a business and i beleive it will be run as such (which probably means sh*tting on us fans, but we'll wait and see). To be honest, if they gives us the money we need for the stadium and then Rafa gets similar backing to what he has had under Moores then i will be happy. I would like us to have money, of course i would, and i would be a hypocrite for it, but i would not like us to waste money in the way that you have. We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out.

As for being frustrated at being out of the title race, well, frustrated is just the tip of the iceberg. I have never gone into a season with such genuine beleif that we can win the league. All i can hope for now is that we pick up our form and can set down a challenge next year. Again we'll have to wait and see.

 
A lot of the work being done by Roman at the club goes un noticed. (particularly by the bias press and jealuos opposition fans)Besides the fact he has cleared out debt(i understand LFC are ?100m in debt) he is in the process of building one of the best state of the art training grounds in world football. One of the best youth academy's, and looking into ways of increasing the capacity at the bridge. All on top of bringing us record breaking success on the pitch. In an ideal world we would'nt waste a penny but not every player works out.

There are plenty of billionaire owners in the prem now, but none putting their money where their mouth is like Roman. I cant understand why he is villified for this.

God bless him.

 
Rob, you can talk about things that heppened recently in regards to lots of your fans going to games without tix, and nothing happened. The reality of the situation is, that before all seating grounds were introduced you and your fans were responsible for the killing of people.Tis whole debate came around in light of some of us wanting all standing areas back. then someone said it would never happen because of scoucers...heisel, hillsborough...all you lot, and the reasons why we are all seater. That, you can't argue. Scoucers cling to their history, adn talk shi* to Chelsea that we have none, then in the next breath claim that we were responsible for Heisel, just because it was a dark period in your history adn as usual scoucers are acting angelical in the whole situation...passing the buck, so US!!!!

Get a grip mate, and admit you are wrong!
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Your post there is the sums up why i am posting this much on this post. You are ignorant of what happened, why and what the consequences are.

Heysel happened in May 1985, it was a tragedy of which we, Liverpool FC, are partly and mainly to blame. This is totally independent of the tragedy at Hillsborough and should not be spoken about in the same breath.

All seater stadiums in this country came about due to the Lord Justice Taylor report, the enquiry into why the Hillsborough tragedy was ever allowed to happen, in 1989, in which he puts the blame at the door of the South Yorkshire police and the entire crowd management, not at any level the supporters of Liverpool FC. Please read this sentence as many times as is necessary until it has sunk in. Please.

I have not spoken about how 'recently' fans have travelled without tickets, i was speaking of prior to Hillsborough, as in the year before at the same place, at the same time, for the semi final against Forest the year earlier.

I have said before that i have never hear anyone suggest that you were to blame for Heysel. I beleive you that it has been said, but i cant take responsibility for apologising for them. I wasnt there, but what i know is that we were to blame, along with many other factors.

As for being wrong, i dont understand what the question of right ot wrong is? All i am saying is that all seater stadiums are not the fault of LFC, its fans or anything else attached to our club.

 
A lot of the work being done by Roman at the club goes un noticed. (particularly by the bias press and jealuos opposition fans)Besides the fact he has cleared out debt(i understand LFC are ?100m in debt) he is in the process of building one of the best state of the art training grounds in world football. One of the best youth academy's, and looking into ways of increasing the capacity at the bridge. All on top of bringing us record breaking success on the pitch. In an ideal world we would'nt waste a penny but not every player works out. There are plenty of billionaire owners in the prem now, but none putting their money where their mouth is like Roman. I cant understand why he is villified for this.

God bless him.
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I understand the good things he is doing, but surely you can understand the vilification when some of Englands best prospects are bought for inflated prices and left to rot on the bench. Parker ?10m, SWP ?23m, that is ludicrous. Then if the signings dont work out they are just sold on for peanuts proving that money is no object, it is not the way things should run in my opinion.

As for building a great youth academy, whats the point when they will not be able to break into the team unless they are Rooney class?

 
Like i said not every player works out. Liverpool is renowned for being a grave yard for players career's. Are you suggesting we play players who are out of form just because they are English. As for the acadamy, if they are good enough they will make it, just ask the England captain. If they are'nt then they have been brought up with the best possible football education availlable, learning from some of the best players in the world which will stand them in good sted for the rest of their careers.

Blaming the yorkshire police for Hillsborough is a massive kop out (excuse the pun).

Accept responsibillity for your actions.

 
Like i said not every player works out. Liverpool is renowned for being a grave yard for players career's. Are you suggesting we play players who are out of form just because they are English. As for the acadamy, if they are good enough they will make it, just ask the England captain. If they are'nt then they have been brought up with the best possible football education availlable, learning from some of the best players in the world which will stand them in good sted for the rest of their careers.
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Did Terry come through the ranks of this new academy whilst Roman was ploughing cash into the team, or did he come through while you were pretty sh*t?

They may have the best football education, but they wont get any games so will still end up at sc**thorpe or Southend like the cast offs do now, and they wont be playing or learning from any of the 'best players in the world' as i doubt your first team will be down at the academy all that much.

Blaming the yorkshire police for Hillsborough is a massive kop out (excuse the pun).Accept responsibillity for your actions.
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Thats bullsh*t. An independant enquiry blamed the police, not me, an INDEPENDANT ENQUIRY. please educate yourself, i have given you the opportunity.

 
I'm not claiming that the police were completely faultless, that i know they were. However, you can not aintain that liverpool fans were completely faultless too? If you do, then mate you are the ignorant one! And back to the main point AGAIN, it is because of scouce fans that all standing will never beallowed...heisel, and Hillsborough testify to that, so well done

Scott

 
I'm not claiming that the police were completely faultless, that i know they were. However, you can not aintain that liverpool fans were completely faultless too? If you do, then mate you are the ignorant one! And back to the main point AGAIN, it is because of scouce fans that all standing will never beallowed...heisel, and Hillsborough testify to that, so well doneScott
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i'm starting to get bored of typing this, i might have to save it so i can copy and past next time you ignore it.

Standing was prohibited because of Hillsborough, not Heysel.

Liverpool fans were not to blame for Hillsborough, it has been stated by an independant enquiry. You are either on a quite distastful wind up, or you are an idiot. I will let you decide.

 
well mate, I am getting bored of your typical "i'm a scoucer get me out of here" mentality when it comes to accepting blame!

An independent study...that is all you have to go on? Look at what heppened, not just at hillsborough, but Heisel! A british team, LIVERPOOL, caused a major tragedy, which force European football into revising standing areas. THAT IS FACT!

Scoucers are a bad bunch of fans, but you cling on to your history (the good parts) and claim innocence. When a true look at your history would show that you, and your fans, are one of the main reasons why all seater stadiums exist.

now correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think i am, the main topic of this conversation was about a standing area, not about liverpool's history. And unfortunatley due to your sh*t history we have to realize that a standing area ain't going to hapen

 
Lets not beat around the Bush!!

Its a fact!!!

YOUR lot did what they did!!

Remember Its your HISTORY!!!

So dont come on here and give it large about history and the like!!!

ITS ALL B*LLOCKS MUSH!!!

 
Lets not beat around the Bush!!Its a fact!!!

YOUR lot did what they did!!

Remember Its your HISTORY!!!

So dont come on here and give it large about history and the like!!!

ITS ALL B*LLOCKS MUSH!!!
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what does that mean? Since i have been visiting this forum the majority of the people on here have been pretty sound, but that doesnt even make sense!

 
Don't worry, RedRobMol, most of us are nice and understanding. I only hate ManU, and even there my hatred as abated somewhat over the past year or so.

 
Don't worry, RedRobMol, most of us are nice and understanding. I only hate ManU, and even there my hatred as abated somewhat over the past year or so.
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So much so that you now want them to win the Champions League.
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Heysel happened in May 1985, it was a tragedy of which we, Liverpool FC, are partly and mainly to blame. This is totally independent of the tragedy at Hillsborough and should not be spoken about in the same breath.All seater stadiums in this country came about due to the Lord Justice Taylor report, the enquiry into why the Hillsborough tragedy was ever allowed to happen, in 1989, in which he puts the blame at the door of the South Yorkshire police and the entire crowd management, not at any level the supporters of Liverpool FC. Please read this sentence as many times as is necessary until it has sunk in. Please.

As for being wrong, i dont understand what the question of right ot wrong is? All i am saying is that all seater stadiums are not the fault of LFC, its fans or anything else attached to our club.
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I agree with every word of this post.

The Taylor Report was an inquiry carried out by the Home Office which, for me, was entirely appropriate as the magnitude of what had occurred meant it was an issue which was far too substantial for footballing bodies to deal with it.

It's remit was to establish the causes of the tragedy and make recommendations to try and prevent such a tragedy ever happening again.

Specifically the Taylor Report pointed toward the failure to close off the tunnel that led into the already packed enclosures AFTER the police had demanded a gate be opened to let in more fans as the cause of the disaster.

However more generally it also highlighted that the football authorities and police had failed to learn lessons from previous incidents, that the ground lacked basic safety requirements, that the police lost all control and that they were more focused on spotting violence then acting in the best interest of the general public. The ground had actually had parts redeveloped but nothing had been done to have a safety certificate awarded to the new design and the local emergency services had never been informed that the stadium had been changed (hence screwing their chances of responding to a disaster in the best possible way)

It did absolve Liverpool fans of any blame and for me that was the correct decision. This was a very thorough inquiry, it was not a football cover up, it was taken out of the hands of football and put in the hands of Govt and when you consider that the majority of the blame was placed at the door of a Public Sector body (i.e. the police) then I find it hard to agree that this inquiry should not be relied upon when it comes to deciding whether or not Liverpool fans were to blame.

 
I agree with every word of this post.The Taylor Report was an inquiry carried out by the Home Office which, for me, was entirely appropriate as the magnitude of what had occurred meant it was an issue which was far too substantial for footballing bodies to deal with it.

It's remit was to establish the causes of the tragedy and make recommendations to try and prevent such a tragedy ever happening again.

Specifically the Taylor Report pointed toward the failure to close off the tunnel that led into the already packed enclosures AFTER the police had demanded a gate be opened to let in more fans as the cause of the disaster.

However more generally it also highlighted that the football authorities and police had failed to learn lessons from previous incidents, that the ground lacked basic safety requirements, that the police lost all control and that they were more focused on spotting violence then acting in the best interest of the general public. The ground has actually had parts redeveloped but nothing had been done to have a safety certificate awarded to the new design and the local emergency services had never been informed that the stadium had been changed (hence screwing their chances of responding to a disaster in the best possible way)

It did absolve Liverpool fans of any blame and for me that was the correct decision. This was a very thorough inquiry, it was not a football cover up, it was taken out of the hands of football and put in the hands of Govt and when you consider that the majority of the blame was placed at the door of a Public Sector body (i.e. the police) then I find it hard to agree that this inquiry should not be relied upon when it comes to deciding whether or not Liverpool fans were to blame.
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All I can say is thanks. I am fighting a losing battle but at least there are shining lights like yourself here. I am fully aware that this is boring the arse of a lot of your members, but it is a subject which means a lot to me (even if only by association) and it gets me quite angry.

thanks again.

 
I'm sure the police could have handleld a bad situation better, but it was a bad situation caused by Liverpool fans, and its the reason we will never have all seater stadiums.It must be hard to take and i'm sure its easier to shift the blame onto the authorities rather than accept it was caused by fellow fans but it was. The police did'nt go to work that day saying lets see how many fans we can get into Hillsborough. Forget the independant enquiry, all they are are white washes.

I dont want to keep harping on about what is obviously a very painfull subject for all Liverpool fans but thats the beauty of history, it gives us the chance to learn from our mistakes. So dont put your head in the sand. If your supporters had accepted some responsibility it might have improved their behaviour today.(like on the way home from Istanbul)

As for our youth set up, Terry broke into the team under Vialli, and kept his place under Ranieri. But unlike popular belief, we were actually a very good team before Roman came along. He broke into the side when we had 2 world cup winners at centre half.

Our acadamy is at our new training ground so the youth players do occasionally work with the first team(i'm sure Terry learned alot from one of the greatest defenders of all time in Marcel Desailly).Whats the alternative, to have no youth team. That would go down well with the FA, and the press would kill us.

Its seems to me that nothing we do will ever be right, and nothing you do will ever be wrong, yet we are the ignorant ones?

 
I'm sure the police could have handleld a bad situation better, but it was a bad situation caused by Liverpool fans, and its the reason we will never have all seater stadiums.It must be hard to take and i'm sure its easier to shift the blame onto the authorities rather than accept it was caused by fellow fans but it was. The police did'nt go to work that day saying lets see how many fans we can get into Hillsborough. Forget the independant enquiry, all they are are white washes. I dont want to keep harping on about what is obviously a very painfull subject for all Liverpool fans but thats the beauty of history, it gives us the chance to learn from our mistakes. So dont put your head in the sand. If your supporters had accepted some responsibility it might have improved their behaviour today.(like on the way home from Istanbul)

As for our youth set up, Terry broke into the team under Vialli, and kept his place under Ranieri. But unlike popular belief, we were actually a very good team before Roman came along. He broke into the side when we had 2 world cup winners at centre half.

Our acadamy is at our new training ground so the youth players do occasionally work with the first team(i'm sure Terry learned alot from one of the greatest defenders of all time in Marcel Desailly).Whats the alternative, to have no youth team. That would go down well with the FA, and the press would kill us.

Its seems to me that nothing we do will ever be right, and nothing you do will ever be wrong, yet we are the ignorant ones?
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i despair, i really do. You must be so proud to have such an unchangable opinion. So, what you are saying is that fans recollections of what happened who were there are wrong, an independant enquiry of what happened was wrong, but you, who read a paper is right? For christs sake lad, read that out loud and see if you sound like a prick.

I couldnt care less about your youth set up to be honest, i just dont think you will get much use out of it. just my opinion and we shall see what happens.

Oh, and as for behaviour today, returning from istanbul, i presume you mean Michael Shields? If you do, that is ONE lad out of 30odd thousdand, who was not 'on his way back from istanbul' he was on holiday in bulgaria. Is he the first Englishman to get in trouble fighting on holiday abroad? If he is guilty, which i am happy to beleive he is then he wasnt doing it in the name of LFC, he was doing it as a drunken englishman abroad, which should be condemened, but should WE?

Apart from that, tell me the last time we have CAUSED trouble abroad? Our fans have been attacked in Rome and Turin, but we were not the agressors.

 
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